Update - See section "What the Bible Says"
Chik Wedding
Chik-Fil-A
I'm starting here so we can put this to bed quickly and move on.Can you believe that the center of the gay marriage universe is a closed-on-Sunday fast food restaurant? It looks like the battle is slowing down, but holy chicken, what a bizarre setting for this issue.
“I think we are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at him and say, ‘We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage.' I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we would have the audacity to try to redefine what marriage is all about.”
I believe this man is 59 years old and from the south. Why would anyone be surprised by his comments? Further than that, if he believes we are putting ourselves in danger with God, he should say what he said. He genuinely thinks not allowing gay marriage will save us, so I don't see the cause for the uproar.
There are far worse things to do than offend people while trying to help or, in this case, to save them.
That being said, I also know he is dead wrong, and I think I have some worthwhile proof.
The Science of Gay
Apparently the scientific community has other priorities over figuring out what makes people gay. I know I would rather have a cure for cancer, but you would think there would be some fairly conclusive evidence by now. Unfortunately, there really isn't that much. At least not that I have seen (this is where, if you know something I don't, I would love a comment).
What I have found is enough for me to form a strong opinion. It is fairly accepted that being gay is a physiological state. Meaning, there is more to it than just being attracted to the same sex. This is the chemical makeup of a person. Not all that different from if one of your children is short and heavy, and the other is tall and skinny, they will see and do things differently.
Have you ever watched a person and thought, "Now that guy is gay," and been right? Admit it. You have.
Well guess what, that isn't an act. It is a part of that physiological makeup. That isn't to say all gay people move a certain way, or that no straight people move in that same manner, but it is, on average, conclusive.
There are other things than just how a person moves. Obviously, the way they talk and think is generally considered to be different as well. I just haven't found any scientific evidence to back up exactly why and/or how it relates to homosexuality. It looks conclusive that there is a link, but I am not aware of how many details have been discovered at this point in time. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some, but if not, I would imagine they are coming soon!
There are other things than just how a person moves. Obviously, the way they talk and think is generally considered to be different as well. I just haven't found any scientific evidence to back up exactly why and/or how it relates to homosexuality. It looks conclusive that there is a link, but I am not aware of how many details have been discovered at this point in time. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some, but if not, I would imagine they are coming soon!
The end result, from the studies that have been done, is that being gay is born. It is not an environmental contamination, as was first thought and accepted by many 59 year old southerners (and northerners too) a few years ago.
Ready for a talking point? I'm pretty confident gay is a choice, but I am also confident that it is rarely a choice. In this society, I find it impossible to believe that 100% of gay people were born that way. I would love to hear what you think.
The $3 Bill
What the Bible Says
If you keep reading my blog, you will learn a lot about my thoughts on the Bible and it's meanings. In general, I think of the Bible as a guide to being good, but you will never convince me it is the word of God.
I will post about my reasoning for the above statement at a later date. There is far too much to cover. For now, I will only talk about how it relates to homosexuality and what I believe we can actually take from the good book.
Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Apparently the words "homosexual offenders" came from a translation of a Greek word as to no one can agree on the meaning. The word is arsenokoite, if you want to try and figure it out yourself.
So, what many call the word of God was, in fact, translated from another language, by man himself. Was the original Bible written in Greek? No? So this was translated by another man, at least once before, into a Greek word that we don't really understand and then translated to English anyway. How is that the word of God?
Here is something I like even better:
Matthew 18:18 - “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Doesn't that say the choice is ours? I guess if you don't want to see gay people married in heaven, that is the platform against gay marriage on earth.
***
Update: I came across something interesting today. Did you know the Bible is semi-ok with slavery?
Exodus 21:2 - When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he will serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he will go free without any payment.
I think that is VERY interesting. Especially when it comes to whether or not we can change marriage laws.
***
***
Update: I came across something interesting today. Did you know the Bible is semi-ok with slavery?
Exodus 21:2 - When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he will serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he will go free without any payment.
I think that is VERY interesting. Especially when it comes to whether or not we can change marriage laws.
***
What God Might Say
In my imaginary conversations with God, I tried to think about what he might say to us on the issue.
"If gay is wrong, why did I make it possible to be gay?
You people have figured out that all races of man are equal. How can you not see that ALL people are really the same?
I don't know why everyone thinks I hate groups of people, but also believe I am all forgiving, but am also trying to deny rights to some, but if you go to church every Sunday and believe in me, that makes you eternally blameless, that I hurt good people and should punish the bad before they die. You've made this much too confusing.
I don't even remember what I said. The world needed different direction 2000 years ago than it needs today. Why do you think you can't find the original Bible?"
*As a footnote, I do not believe in God as a being, but more as the creator and a surrounding presence. That will also be a post later on, but I am telling you that I do not believe these are God's words or that he literally speaks to me, these were just some words I think he might say to provoke thought. He did, after all, give us brains. I'm going to at least try and use mine.
Conclusion
In order to come to a complete and fair conclusion on any issue, I think you have to consider both sides. I did what I could to argue that if you believe gay is in fact wrong, you should do what you think is right.
Of course, there were a few groups of people that thought very similar things about African Americans, not to mention women and the right to vote. I will stand by my belief that, if those people truly thought they were right, then they did what should be both their civic and Godly duty to pursue making the world a better place.
My problem is, I have a hard time believing any of the aforementioned people truly believe they are right to oppress another group of human beings. I think they are scared, and are/were probably confused by outside influences including, but not limited to, the mob mentality and the church.
In the end my hope is that, if we really talk things through, we can at least begin to erode the confusion that plagues our world and creates these inequalities. We should have learned after we gave women the right to vote, after we integrated African Americans, after we forgave the Japanese for Pearl Harbor (though it would have been better to do that before we nuked them), after we realized physical deformities do not make people monsters, after we realized mentally handicapped people are great people, after we realized that not all Muslims are terrorists, and probably a slew of other people we used to shun and now accept, that gay people should have the same rights as the rest of us. I hope this is the last group we are oppressing, but it isn't a great track record so far.
I hope that, after reading this, you are able to at least consider the following:
- Anti-gay people are not necessarily trying to be evil. Some are trying to do the right thing. Even though many are probably just scared and/or confused.
- Science is not too far along on this subject, but it is still fairly conclusive that gay people are born, not molded. Although I do believe some people out there probably did make a choice, they are probably very few, and they should be allowed to make that choice in any case.
- The Bible is clearly not conclusive in the persecution of gay behavior. Further, if you really trust the Bible, it is clearly written that we are allowed to make the decision here on earth, that we can change the definition of marriage, and God will uphold our decision in heaven.
- Lastly, you should not fully agree with everything I have said, but have an opinion of your own. It doesn't make sense that any one person or one book can speak for God on any issue, so we should all simply do the best we can.
Like I might say in every post, I believe we should all have our own individual religion, regardless if it is 100% Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, or just your own. Even if you are 100% confident in your religion, it shouldn't mean you stop thinking about it, or stop trying to improve yourself and your understanding. We should always try to be better people.
Because this can be a sensitive issue, and I have no idea how many people will read and/or comment, if you do want to leave a comment, don't pull any punches, but DO keep them above the belt. Thanks!
You forgot to mention Indians in your litany of oppressed. Stop writing things I agree with!
ReplyDeleteI am blown away by this Ryan!
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to more of your thoughts.Very heavy issue to begin with,
but a worthy one that will always have debates on this as a "right or wrong" way of life.
You are such a thinker!
Waiting to read more from you.
Connie
First of all, excellent post and I am looking forward to all future ones!
ReplyDeleteI think I would generically state that we have awfully similar beliefs, therefore, my comments will mostly be further expanding on those you have stated.
Chick-fil-a: I think he is just flat out stupid for letting his personal beliefs, which have nothing to do with his business, that are almost certain to cause an uproar out. I think it is obvious enough with being closed on Sundays that he is a religious man (company). A friend of mine, who happens to be gay, summed it up best when he said, "they are in fact simply using their freedom of speech as am I when I say they are a**holes". Second point..those who are either gay or pro-gay marriage did a lot of knee-jerking solely on his verbiage. What upsets me most is that CFA donates money to organization who specifically fight against gay marriage. To me you can be for it, against it or not care. Most people trying to say CFA was just speaking it's belief try to appear in the "not care" category, however, CFA falls in the against it category.
The Science of Gay: I think there is a difference between being gay and your choice of sexual partner. To further explain. I am a straight man. I am attracted to females, however, if I wanted to I could chose to interact sexually with a man does that make me gay? I don't think so. I also don't think it makes me bi-sexual. Your internal attractions do not have to match your external actions. Nothing to me is more sad than a homosexual person these days feeling like they have to live a straight life. I can't imagine having to suppress what can be some of the most exciting feelings a human can experience.
Secondly: IF being gay or straight were solely a choice, then we could all choose to be attracted to a specific type of person. While you, Ryan, and I might be able to look at a female walking down the street and say "she is attractive" we can also have very different tastes in what we desire. To me the gay/straight thing is a VERY large spectrum. If I am a male and prefer a masculine female does that make me gay? I don't think so.
Finally: The two questions that always come to mind on the choosing of be gay topic. #1. When did all of the straight people CHOOSE to be straight? #2. Given the way most of society acts towards gays, why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?
The Bible: I couldn't agree more here!! Assuming the specifics of God will be on a later post I will withhold opinions. While there are MANY things wrong with the Catholic church, one thing I really like is during most homilies, quoting of specific bible verses does not occur. The preceding readings are direct from the bible. The homily does not need to use other verses to justify the previous readings. We should use the reading to make us think and apply the teachings to current day life. Nothing irks me more when people use the bible to justify judging someone else (don't care what the verbiage says) that is NOT harming anyone. Ironically, everything that does harm someone we automatically know being human and don't have to reference the bible. Examples: I don't refrain from murder specifically because the bible says so, I do it because it is a wrong action as a human to take the life of another human. I didn't (not always..haha) talk back to my parents because the bible said honor your father and mother, I respected them as my parents.
In conjunction with your recommending that we should see both sides I will offer one of the best quotes I ever heard. My junior year theology teacher in school: "A faith not questioned is a weak faith". I feel this applies to many aspects in life, not just religion!
JT
First, nice comments. I really appreciate getting the feedback!
DeleteI know we could go back and forth for hours on this. Those are the topics I am trying to choose for this blog, but I am going to keep this short and limit it to the points that I feel could be challenged in your mind:
Chik-Fil-A: I'm right with you, except that I thought they made it clear they were against gay marriage. I don't know if they tried to say they were neutral, but yes, they are clearly not. The part that upsets you is the part I actually agree with. If they are against gay marriage, they should fight to stop it. I am on the opposite side, of course, but they believe this is a question of damnation. I know if I thought that way about something, I would fight it as best I could as well.
The Science of Gay: You wrote "if I wanted to I could chose to interact sexually with a man does that make me gay? I don't think so." The word I keyed on was "wanted." I'm pretty sure if you want to have sexual relations with the same sex, you are at least a little gay. If you just wanted to see what it is like because you are trying to figure out if you are gay, I would think you would just use your imagination, not act on it. If you are in prison and someone drops the soap, I think that is one exception. If you mistake a guy in drag for an attractive woman, I wouldn't call that gay either. I think we are splitting hairs a little here, but I do think that if you WANT to have some sexual fun with a member of the same sex, you have at least a little homosexuality in you.
**Additionally, you are asking why would anyone choose to be gay (and I am going to address this more in a second), but you are expressing an example of a choice to have sexual relations with another man, saying that doesn't make you gay, but you are choosing a gay behavior, so I feel you need to choose one or the other here. Either the want does make you gay, or you can choose to act gay (if you choose against who you really are, isn't it all an act anyway?). It doesn't sound like you can be against both as you are now.
Finally: I totally agree with the wide spectrum. Hence, I think you can be just a little gay, or any shade of grey. The question, "Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?" is a popular defense. Like I said, I think it is rare. Serial killers are rare too. Do you think they were just born that way? How it comes to happen, I have no idea, but I still believe it does. I know of several people who tried to choose to be straight as well. It usually doesn't work, but I bet the traffic floats both ways. One guess at a scenario is two friends who very much love each other. One comes out and professes his true love and desire for the other. Maybe, for the right person, the second friend gives it a shot?
Love the rest, and thanks again for taking the time to read and share your thoughts here! I expect more of this from you in the future!
*Also, my wife wants me to mention I typed this with one hans while holding a baby. :-)
I think I did not write my thoughts very clearly. Gotta be careful on the word "wanted". I think my overall point was...and I know someone personally in this situation: If there is a gay person (a man in this case) that is attracted to and desires to be with a man but by pressure of outsiders is "not allowed" to live as a gay man and he chooses to be asexual or date, be with or marry a woman (even to the point of having kids)is he now "not gay"?
DeleteI love this question. My belief is that a person is best defined by what he or she does, even moreso than who he or she is on the inside. So, if you outwardly deny who you are and behave differently, you are what you do, not what you deny. Is he physiologically not gay? No. He's a born gay man. Would you consider a man who had a sex change to be a man or woman? Me, I say woman.
DeleteThe point I would argue again in this situation, is that it sounds to me like you believe he is and will always be gay, but he has clearly chosen not to accept that and to be a straight man in society. Regardless of who he really is, hasn't he chosen to be straight?
I agree in the social sense. As you stated, and I agree, people choose the way they live as a person. If I dress, act, etc. as a woman (without surgery) I am appearing and living as a woman, yet still a man. I know this is sort of apples and oranges but it is the best example I can come up with.
ReplyDeleteIf anything my entire point is (in this example) this person is "born gay" and currently choosing otherwise. Not you of course, but most of the hate-filled people seem to think that everyone is born straight (because God would have no other way) and that it can be only chosen to be gay. It is not possible the other way around. Ok, I feel like I am taking over your comment section ;). I promise in the future to keep comments to a minimum!
No way! You have great points, and keep them coming! What you say here makes sense, and it is warranted. I think each comment made it more clear what you actually believe, at least to me, and that is certainly the idea of the comment section. To learn what others think!
Delete